Saturday, April 23, 2011

The Beauty That is being Commemorated on This Day.

From this:


To This in Three Days:



As we were walking out of the church doors I looked up at grandpa and grandma and asked, “Why was the Crucifixion and Resurrection of the Christ a necessity for our salvation as the good reverend said when the Father is all powerful and could have granted forgiveness for the sin of Adam?”

Grandpa and grandma just looked down at me than looked at each other with a pleased grin on their faces. Then grandma looked back down at me and said,

“Boy, that is a good question and a question that has been pondered over many times since that blessed event and it probably will be pondered over until the end of time because only the Father can answer that question truthfully as it needs to be answered. But your grandfather and I have come to the conclusion that the answer can be found in John 3:16.

'For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.'

Love, boy, is not something that is given out of need but it is given freely and consensually. And the Crucifixion and Resurrection was the means chosen to show mankind just how much love God has for him. 

So, as far as your grandfather and I are concerned you are correct in your implication that they were not needed or a requirement of our salvation. Love does not require or need anything. But in order for man to understand that love, it must be shown. God showed us His love in a manner that no man can truly comprehend thus man justifies it by logically declaring that it was needed and a requirement for our salvation.”

"HAPPY EASTER, EVERYONE.
MAY THE LOVE OF GOD BE REVEALED
IN EVERY HEART."







21 comments:

Lista said...

You just Make stuff up. Don't you? What is Required is that we Accept the Free Gift. If we are not Willing to Accept it, then we will not Make it into Heaven.

In the Old Testament, God Required Blood Sacrifices. He Required the Sacrifice of a Lamb without Blemish. Jesus was the Lamb of God and this Sacrifice Ended the requirement of Animal Sacrifices. All that is Required now is the Acceptance of God's Free Gift and we do that by Repenting of Our Sins and Accepting the Spirit of Christ into Our Hearts.

Even the Verse you Quoted is not without a Requirement.

"For God so loved the world, as to give His only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in Him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting."

The Requirement is that we Believe. It is not by Works, though, but by Faith, for...

"8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; 9) Not of works, lest any man should boast."

The Griper said...

lista,
your comments are from an entirely different perspective of salvation than the perspective of the post. so, no, i am not just making things up.

in fact, within your comments is affirmation of my post so if i am making things up so are you.

Lista said...

From the very Beginning, until now, Blood has always been a Requirement for Salvation, so your Statement that "you are correct in your implication that they were not needed or a requirement of our salvation." is not Correct.

Your Statement that "Love does not Require or Need anything" is also Very Highly Incorrect. God may not Need much from us because of who He is, but we are not Perfect, so we do Need and because we Need, there are Certain Things that Love Requires in Order to Remain Strong, especially within Marriage.

If we are not Willing to Meet each others Needs, then the Marriage will not Last, or even if it does Last Out of Obligation, the Love will not Last if there is no Effort Put into Meeting the Needs of Our Partner and the Marriage will be Empty.

To Illustrate my Point, Let me Quote one more Thing...

"But in order for man to understand that love, it must be shown."

Why is anything a "Must", if nothing is Required or Needed. The Word "Must" Suggests something that is Required, so this Sentence is a Contradiction to the Rest of what you are saying.

Basically, Griper, you have a Very Highly Idealistic and Unrealistic View of Love, that no one can Live Up to. No One can Not Expect a Single Thing and just as I Told you Before, this doesn't Work and it is not what the Bible Teaches.

I Hate to Spoil your Easter Post, Griper, yet Everything that you Post is always Tainted with your Incorrect Views about Love and I just can not Allow you to Present the Salvation Message Incorrectly. It is far too Important of a Message.

The Griper said...

you do not spoil my Easter post, lista. you have your viewpoint, I have mine in this issue.

your viewpoint is a very "deterministic" viewpoint. and you still are approaching the issue from a different perspective than what is in the post.

and don't quote me out of context.
what i said was;

"so, as far as your grandfather and I are concerned you are correct in your implication that they were not needed or a requirement of our salvation."

not;

" you are correct in your implication that they were not needed or a requirement of our salvation."

that gives it an entirely different meaning and is not an absolute statement as you tried to make it out as.

Lista said...

My Perspective is a Christian Perspective. Yours is simply your Grandparents Perspective. Sorry, but Your Grandparents believe something that is not Taught in Christianity.

Also, you use the Word "Deterministic" in such a Broad Way at times that I no Longer Know what you mean when you say it. You Stress Free Choice so much, that it Allows you to Choice to Treat Others in any Selfish way that you wish and this is not how Relationships Work. Responsibility Needs to be Balanced with Freedom and Responsibility comes with Obligations and Requirements.

Love also Comes with Obligations and Requirements and this is why the Statement that, "Love does not require or need anything." is Incorrect. Not Only That, but it is Grossly Incorrect.

This is Especially True when we realize that in your View of Marriage, the Man is allowed to Require Obedience and Submission to his Own Wishes, but the Women is not Allowed to Require a Thing. Once this Reality is Realized, this is when the Fullness of your Hypocrisy is Revealed and your Statement that, "Love does not require or need anything." becomes both Selfish and One Sided.

This is a Very Highly Distorted View of what the Bible Teaches and has nothing at all to do with Love.

The Griper said...

he just smiles at the girl. if you are espousing the Christian prospective then it must be the Christian prospective that grandpa and grandma is espousing also.

reason, because i have already said that your affirmation of my post was already within your comments earlier.

Lista said...

You can Smile all you want and it will never change what is true.
Also, if you think that Words, such as Responsibility, Obligation and Requirements, indicate Determinism, than you are not Understanding these Words Correctly.

When I say the your Statement, "Love does not require or need anything", is Grossly Incorrect, that is exactly what I mean and no Amount of you Pretending that I agree with you is going to Change that. I also do not agree that "the Man is allowed to Require Obedience and Submission to his Own Wishes, but the Women is not Allowed to Require a Thing."

No Where in the Bible does it say that a Man is allowed to Treat his Wife like Crap and show no concern for what she needs. You Distort Scripture to make it fit with what you selfishly desire.

As to your Statement, "reason, because i have already said that your affirmation of my post was already within your comments earlier."

Calvinists have Interpreted Verses, such as Ephesians 2:8-9...

"8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; 9) Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, KJV)

with the Emphasis on the Word "Gift". Armenians Stress the Word "Faith". The Phrases "Not of yourselves" and "Not of Works" mean nothing more than it is by Faith and not Works.

I Interpret the Verse in an Armenian Way. If you Interpret it in a Calvinistic Way, then it is you who are "Deterministic", not I.

For a Person to Use Calvinism as a Justification to Mistreat a Wife, or for that Matter any Women and put his Own Wants and Needs First is a Form of Hypocrisy, for this is not what Christianity is About. To Fully Understand Christianity, you have to also Read the Book of James. So again I will say that your Distortions of the Scriptures do not Reflect the Christian Point of View. Instead, you Make Things Up in order to suit your Own Pleasure.

The Griper said...

he smiles again. yup, there is nothing i can do to change what is true, that i will admit without argument. and i wouldn't want to either.

and the reason i am smiling is that i see, what you call, a conditioned response from you again. but then again, that is something i am used to by now and i have no expectations of anything otherwise from you either on anything i might post or say in comments.

Lista said...

You are Smiling because of a Superiority Complex. The Conditioned Response that you are Talking about is Anger. I don't really know how it is that you think that I am Angry. Since this is not an in person contact, there is really no way for you to know for sure that I am angry, or whether or not I am Calmly Warning your Audience of who it is that you Actually are. You are Smiling Only because you Perceive that I am Angry.

Smiling Over someone else's Anger is nothing more than a Superiority Complex. You think that you are Superior to me if I am Angry and you are not. You are actually doing nothing more right now then revealing to your audience exactly how much Ugliness you have inside of you.

At this Point, whether I am Angry or not is Irrelevant. I Simply want your Audience to Realize that you Smile when other People become Angry and feeling Enjoyment over other People's Pain is the Exact Opposite of Love. So, Once again, I want to say that you have no Comprehension What-so-ever of what Love is and therefore should not be Talking about the Message of Easter.

There is a Possibility that I am Destroying your Reputation right now and it Surprises me that you do not even Realize that that's what's Occurring. You are too Busy Enjoying what you perceive to be my Anger and your Own Feelings of Superiority to me, to Realize the Consequences that might soon be coming to you. You don't even Realize that the Absence of Anger is not a Virtue when it comes with Lack of Compassion as well.

I don't actually Know if I'm Angry or not. I'm Tired. You Make me Feel Tired and that is all that I Know.

Lista said...

You are Smiling because you are Naive and do not Realize that Lack of Anger when it comes with Lack of Compassion is not at all a Virtue. You are Proud and think you are Superior because you are Naive and do not Realize the Ugliness in your Own Heart.

The Griper said...

lista,
any good blogger realizes that he is risking his own reputation when he posts about controversial issues in the eyes of some people. it is the nature of controversy.

and any good blogger realizes that he risks having some who will try to destroy his reputation when commenting. most bloggers will refer to these persons as trolls.

the only question a blogger has to answer is in the realization of these risks does he have the self-esteem necessary to not allow these possibilities to bother him?

and one answer might be the one i'll say to you and that is;

i still consider you as a good friend of mine in spite of your explicit as well as implicit attempts to do so in the eyes of everyone who may read what you say about me.

whether or not you succeeed is not in my control or yours. it will be those who read who will decide the question.

Lista said...

People who are Truly Bothered by nothing at all are Cold Hearted and those who's Self-Esteem is Excessive are Arrogant.

The Reason why you Still Consider me a Friend is because you do not Understand what Friendship is. You can Imagine all you want to that I like you as a Friend, but that will not make it a Reality, rather than an Illusion.

You Make yourself out to be a Martyr who is being treated unfairly by me, yet do you really think that your Listeners are not going to Consider the Possibility than my Concern that you might hurt someone is there for a Legitimate Reason?

I Truly hope that I Have Placed Enough Doubt in the Minds of your Listeners that People will be Careful not the Trust you and will therefore not be Hurt by you.

People who are Honorable are less Likely to Risk their Reputations while Blogging, because Nobleness Speaks for itself, but there is no Nobleness in you.

Personally, I do not Think that being the Cause of someone's Anger and then being Willing to Forgive them for what you have Caused is Honorable at all. Forgiveness Means Nothing if your Own Heart is Full of Unrepentant Selfishness.

"whether or not you succeed is not in my control or yours."

Ahh. But it is within your Control. All you would have to do is Refuse to Print what I Write or Delete it. Tell Everyone that I am a Troll and be done with me.

And then People can come to my Blog and see for themselves whether or not I am the One who is a Horrible Person.

Actually, I don't Care if People Like you, I just want them to have enough Doubt in their Hearts that they will Protect themselves, so that you will not Hurt them.

Why would I care about this anyway, if I didn't truly believe that you have the Potential to do Harm.

Believe it or not, I'm not really that Concerned about you anymore. I'm more Concerned about your Friends.

The Griper said...

"People who are Truly Bothered by nothing at all are Cold Hearted and those who's Self-Esteem is Excessive are Arrogant"

don't try to mislead, lista. i never said that.

as for arrogance, i don't know where you learned that but i was taught arrogance was a sign of low self-esteem.
-------
"The Reason why you Still Consider me a Friend is because you do not Understand what Friendship is."

if that be so then i welcome my ignorance on the subject of friendship. i prefer seeing you as a friend.
-------
"You can Imagine all you want to that I like you as a Friend,..."

my idea of friendship doesn't require for you to like me in order to consider you as a friend so there is no illusion on my part.
-----
"Ahh. But it is within your Control. All you would have to do is Refuse to Print what I Write or Delete it. Tell Everyone that I am a Troll and be done with me."

yup, i guess i could do that if i was willing to compromise my principles in regards to the concept of friendship. since i am unwilling to do that then my statement stands as written.
------
"Believe it or not, I'm not really that Concerned about you anymore."

that is fine, lista. i'm not worried about whether or not you are concerned about me. i have learned to stand on my own feet a long time ago. and, believe it or not, so have those who look upon me as a friend too.

Lista said...

I never said that you said what you claim you did not say. I'm the one who said it.

"i was taught arrogance was a sign of low self-esteem."

You are Right. Just because I failed to Explain that Detail doesn't mean that I am not Aware or it and you Obviously have a Low Self-Esteem.

Whether or not you still Consider me a Friend Means nothing to me. We are Instructed to Love all People, but we are not Told that that means that we need to be a Friend to all People. I will always Care about your Well Being, but there is not a whole lot that I can do about your Well Being because you have Closed yourself Off from my Influence and this is why I have Chosen instead to be more Concerned about the Well Being of those who Read your Blog.

Your Principles in Regards to Friendship are Destructive to Friendship. You can Continue to Consider me a Friend, but for a Friendship to be a True Friendship the feelings have to be Mutual and if they are not, you do not have a Friendship. You can Define the Word Friendship in any way that you want to and it will not Change what is True.

You are Trying to Create the Appearance of Unconditional Love, yet you do not Understand Love. Love is Humble and you have no Humility in you.

Lista said...

"i have learned to stand on my own feet a long time ago and believe it or not, so have those who look upon me as a friend too."

People who Need Nothing from Others are the Most Isolated and Lonely People on earth. They have no Friends because Friendship Involves Meeting each other's Needs, so those who Need Nothing have no Need for Friendship. Your set a Principles are truly sad and I have no Interest in them.

I almost wish that I could Talk to one of your "Friends". Maybe they could enlighten me about things that you have not adequately explained.

God Gives Grace to the Humble and you are not Humble and that is why I Fear for you.

Perhaps it is Time for me to do a Post about God's Grace in Comparison with the Idea of Unconditional Love, as Taught within Secular Humanism. This might bring more Clarity to you and your Readers if I can Encourage some of them to Read it. I'll Let you Know when I get it Posted.

Oh and BTW, I do not Actually Hate you, but I do not Consider you my Friend. Friends are People who Contribute Significant Things to my Life. I am still Commanded to Love those who Offer me Nothing, yet I do not Consider this Friendship, so I would Express my Agape Love to you in an Entirely different way. I Love you in the Lord, but I do not Consider you my Friend.

Lista said...

Interesting. You now have Comment Moderation on. It will be Interesting to see what you do and do not Post.

The Griper said...

i've always had comment moderation on, lista. it just doesn't apply until after 3 days.

The Griper said...

"Just because I failed to Explain that Detail doesn't mean that I am not Aware or it and you Obviously have a Low Self-Esteem."

first you implicitly accuse me of extreme high self-esteem then you turn around and explicitly accuse me of having low self esteem. there is no explanation needed.

it just shows you are a very poor judge of character. its that plain and simple.

you may have a degree in psychology, lista but you have shown me that you have a very poor understanding of the concepts taught.

and that says more about the educational system than it says about you.

i've got no more to say in this post.

Lista said...

You and I are Chronically Misunderstanding One Another, Griper.

You are Arrogant because you Never Apologize for much of anything. A Lot of People Consider Arrogance, Extreme Self-Esteem, so without getting Technical, this is Accurate. If you do Want to be Technical, however, those who are Arrogant in Actuality have Low Self-Esteem. Communication is Sometimes Different Depending on what Level a Person is Talking on and it is a lot of Effort to be Talking on the Highest and more Technical Level all the Time.

If you Talk on a Technical Level, sometimes Additional Explanation is Needed, so being Non-Technical is Easier and Sometimes being Technical isn't Necessary.

"it just shows you are a very poor judge of character."

You are Right, for I used to Think you were a Pretty Neat Person, yet I was Wrong, so that shows a Poor Judge of Character on my Part. Aside from Arrogance, you also have no Remorse when you have Hurt Someone. I've Seen Evidence in you of Out Right Cruelty, so yes, I Agree with you that I am a Poor Judge in Character.

"you may have a degree in psychology, lista, but you have shown me that you have a very poor understanding of the concepts taught."

That is Exactly my Opinion of You, Griper.

"and that says more about the educational system than it says about you."

Yes, and that is why a lot of what I've Learned about Relationships comes from Christianity and not Psychology, for Psychology does not Offer the Answers. It certainly hasn't made you into a very good Person.

Lista said...

As to Lack of Apology, though, Did you Learn that in Psychology? I don't Know. I guess that Might be Part of Assertiveness Training, yet you Know what? I Practiced something that I Learned in Assertiveness Training Once and Ended Up Loosing my Job. All I Did was said "I'm Going to Lunch.", instead of "May I Go to Lunch?".

Unfortunately, this was not Considered by my Boss to be Assertive, but instead Disrespectful. So much for Assertiveness Training.

Sorry that I have been Angry with you. It Probably would have been better if I had been Calmer sooner than I was. You have Hurt me, though, Way more than you will ever Fully Realize. I guess the Fact that my Girl Friend Died didn't Help any, yet don't you see, that is just the Time in which more Understanding is Needed. Such is not the Best Time for a Lesson in Assertiveness, "how to not get Hurt", or whatever.

It's also not a very Kind Thing to use the Idea that "Everyone is Responsible for their Own Emotions" as a Justification for Mistreating Someone.

Here’s what I Think the Communication Gap is Between me and you. You have Studied a Different Aspect of Psychology than I have. Your Emphasis has been on Sociology, Behaviorism and well, I’m not sure what all else. My Emphasis has been on other Counseling Approaches, such as Psychoanalysis, Humanism and Cognitive Therapy.

I don’t Think you Know Much about Cognitive Therapy, Griper, for if you did, you would Understand what Black and White Thinking is and that such is a Negative. You would also Understand why it is Important to Avoid Absolutes, such as Always, Never, Everyone, Nobody, etc.

Here is the Difference between you and Me. Though, I do know what Behaviorism is, I am Willing to Admit that I do not Know as much about Sociology as you do. You, however, are not Willing to Admit that I Know Things that you may not have Studied. This Difference between us is Best Defined as your Arrogance.

The Other Thing that you are not Willing to Admit is that some Approaches Work Better for some People than Others. Your Approach, for Example, does not Work well with me and to Conclude that this is Proof that "you have a very poor understanding of the concepts taught." is a False Conclusion. There are Exceptions to Everything, and I have always been an Odd Ball that Represents One Exception after another. I Don’t Really Like being your Client, though, or your Student, or whatever. It is not Really your Job to Teach me "how to not get Hurt." and to Continue such a Lesson even after my Girl Friend Died is a Severe Misjudgment as a Teacher.

I Never Asked to be your Client, or your Student and the Fact that I am Supposed to Learn from you when you have no Intention whatsoever of Learning anything from me is yet another Example of your Arrogance.

What more can I say? I guess I’m a rather Poor Judge in Character, just as you said. I Really should have been more Aware of it Sooner that you had been Looking Down on me from the Start. Here’s what I’ve Learned from you. You are an Arrogant Jerk. That’s what I’ve Learned.

Lista said...

You Know, the Longer I Think about what you have just Written, the More I Think about to Say. Consider, for Example, the Following Statement…

"first you implicitly accuse me of…….,then you turn around and explicitly accuse me of…….."

This is a Hypocrisy and the Reason why is because you have Time and Time Again Told me that I should not ever Respond to what is Inferred or Implied, but only to what is Directly Stated. Whenever I Suggested that you were Accusing me of Something you would Use this as your Defense and you were Continually Reminding me not to Assume that I was Being Accused. You Told me that Everyone is Responsible for their own Emotions and that it is the Listener’s Responsibility to Understand, not the Speakers Responsibility to Speak Clearly. You said these things while all the while Insulting me Continually, yet not being Willing to Admit that you were Doing so.

Now that I am the One who is Accusing, I am Held Responsible not Only for the Explicit, but also for the Implicit. Apparently, you are Allowed to Assume what is Implied, even though you have continually Told me not to. This is another of your Many Hypocrisies. If it is the Listener and not the Speaker who Bears the Responsibility, then it shouldn’t Matter what I have Said. You should be Able to Understand me, or if you do not, then Ask me Questions until you do.

Those are your Principles, Griper, so why don’t you Live Up to them, Instead of Pointing Out to me what I am Implicitly Accusing you of. If I don’t say it Directly, then Don’t Assume, just as you have Told me not to. Follow your Own Principles, Griper, and stop Assuming what is Implied or Implicitly Stated.

Just One more Thing. For some Reason I’m Still Thinking about something that you said on 4/28/11, at 11:47 PM.

"i have learned to stand on my own feet a long time ago and believe it or not, so have those who look upon me as a friend too."

Have you Ever Considered, Griper, the Fact that these People who "look upon you as a Friend" are in Reality Getting a Lot of their Needs Met by People Other than you. I Imagine that you do have the Ability to form Casual Acquaintances, yet Excessive Independence will Limit the Level of Closeness and Intimacy that you will be Able to Experience and yes, there may be others out there that have the Same Handicap and some of them may be Among your Collection of Friends. I do not in any way, though, consider the Fact that I happen to have Needs a Weakness and I also will Never Apologize for Possessing such a Level of Humanity.

In Short, I am not Interested in Learning how to Possess your Level of Arrogant Independence.

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