Saturday, August 28, 2010

Biology and the Laws of Marriage

After waiting a bit to hear if there was any argument in regards to what he said grandpa continued his talk at the meeting.

“First of all we must admit that those who favor decisions in regards to the rights of homosexuals are predominantly those who have accepted the theory that homosexuality behavior is a genetically determined trait rather than a learned trait. How many would favor homosexual marriage if sexual behavior were not genetically determined?

And there are societies that show tolerance towards the behavior of homosexuality. But let’s not confuse behavior with state of being. Before we decide to give certain rights to certain individuals who are members of a certain collective we need to make the determination that to do so is beneficial to society as well as it is beneficial to the individuals.

“I brought up the question in an earlier talk of, what would happen in a single gender collective in regards to sexual behavior? Well, we do have collectives of single gender in this society already. Those collectives are known as prisons. And we already know what happens in them in regards to sexual activities. And I challenge anyone to declare that only homosexuals are sexually active in prisons.

If DNA is a valid means to determine biological traits in people and if biological traits are an aspect of the principle of determination rather than free will that can mean only one thing. There must be a gene that controls the sexual orientation of a person and that must be a common gene in each of us.

I have but one question in regards to this. If this is true then two persons possessing the same DNA must be of the same sexual orientation. So, explain to me how there can be identical twins and one of those twins is a heterosexual while the other is a homosexual?

Wikipedia has an interesting entry entitled “Biology and Sexual Orientation”. It describes the many ways that studies have been done in regards to sexual orientation. It seems as if the best that these studies could conclude is and I quote;

No simple, single cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, but research suggests that it is by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[1…”.

In another area of this entry in regards to the study of twins it had this to say and I quote,

“Nonetheless, it is possible to conclude that, given the difference in sexuality in so many sets of identical twins (who are genetically identical), sexual orientation cannot be purely caused by genetics.”

In closing I remind everyone that rights belong to individuals not groups. Thus if we are to determine whether or not the rights of an individual is being denied to any individual by law then we must address the individual.

“ Do the laws on marriage prevent a homosexual from getting married and knowing all of the benefits that there are in marriage? The answer is no. There are no laws that prevent that. The sexual preference of the parties to be married is not a requirement of the State for the purpose of marriage. The only requirement is that the person that one is to be married to is a person of the opposite gender. And this applies to all persons.

Is it true that persons of certain sexual orientation can marry anyone that they want to while persons of a different sexual orientation cannot? The answer is no. Once a law has been enacted in regards to a certain issue no one has the right to do as they want in regards to that issue. The law applies to every single individual thus all are abiding by the law or not abiding by the law. The only way for a person to do what they want is for there to be no laws in regards to what he wants. Think about what this means the next time you hear someone say that there oughta be a law…”

With these words said, grandpa stepped down from the podium and sat next to grandma to await the words of the next speaker.


BB-Idaho said...

"So, explain to me how there can be identical twins and one of those twins is a heterosexual while the other is a homosexual?" The only college genetics course I took involved genotype/phenotype in
hereford breeding. But I'll try. :)
Identical genes may express themselves differently, what they call alleles. A common
example cited in Biology are the relation of blood type to a multiple allele arrangement; thus the
genotype can produce more than one phenotype. It has been theorised from a
population evolution standpoint using the biological concept. For example, in wolf populations only the alpha male breeds, the others care for the young along with the females-so the aberration is a positive to that society. From a practical standpoint, I have known a number of families with
male children who grew up to be gay. One case was three brothers, another two, and several wherein
only one of the boys was.
To a person, all these youngsters exhibited what we would term female traits early on and in none of these families did I note unusual parenting.
It is natural to assume
therefore, some sort of
biological phenomenon. As you note, we do not as yet
possess the specifics, but we are close. A factor in the controversy, IMO is that we are tradition-bound
and tradition has been for a long time 'closeted' so to speak. Tradition is accumulated culture, most often beneficial and as such we are loathe to question it. Conversely,
we feel strongly about the rights of the individual, so there is a philosophical
clash, often exacerbated by
emotion. In that sense, the jury is out. Having skirted the issue in its entirely, I'll return the floor to Grandpa. :)

The Griper said...

he smiles, ahhh, very nice BB. your explanation just adds to my post and gives our readers some more fodder to think about in this controversial issue. and i consider that as good.
i knew that there was a good reason to enjoy your visits. :)

grandpa has a couple of questions, tho. isn't strength the dominating factor of determination of the alpha male in the animal kingdom? and doesn't the alpha male have to continuously defend his place of hierarchy in the clan?

BB-Idaho said...

Grandpa is correct. Social
animals and especially herd animals follow the
'leader of the pack'. Buffalo, Moose, Elk etc
replay the battle each season. Among the primates,
an alpha male who looses his position may be exiled or killed, although if he is a preplanning alpha male, he may have close associates who will protected him in a lesser role among his peers.
Certainly there are a lot of ex-alpha animals in solitary exile. Wolves, like Eagles, penguins, coyotes and mourning doves, mate for life. Though the alpha male wolf leads the pack, there is only one breeding pair..hence the alpha female. Nature's laws vary as much as our contrived
legal system, but Mom nature is enforced by instict and hormones...

The Griper said...

Power seems to play a big role in the hierarchy of any collective of life forms, it seems then.

science even has man displaying the herd mentality. and physical strength is usually the determinant of the leader. gang membership would be an example i am thinking of here.

dictatorship would depend upon this type of collective to stay in power, it would seem.

and mankind has had a very long history of this type of collectives.

this has also seen in the family with the male being the dominant or the alpha and the rest of the family the subordinants who followed his lead.

BB-Idaho said...

"Power seems to play a big role in the hierarchy of any collective of life forms, it seems then."
Yep, big role. Used to say in the Army 'RHIP-rank has its privileges' Unfortunately, as the old saying goes..power corrupts.

The Griper said...

Grandpa wonders if learning can be inherited and if it can be would it be considered as a biological trait or a learned trait?

TAO said...

Two people can share the same DNA and still be different. A shared father and a shared mother does not reproduce the same hair color, or the same physical characteristics every time they have a child.

The Griper said...

read grandpa's rules of a good argument especially the one about taking someone's words out of context.

TAO said...


When you state:

“Nonetheless, it is possible to conclude that, given the difference in sexuality in so many sets of identical twins (who are genetically identical), sexual orientation cannot be purely caused by genetics.”

...and having bred show dogs for over 15 years I know that I can have identicial twins, with one being male and the other being female but they are identicial in every other way.

I can also breed two lines that are known to produce black coat, and I can have two dogs who show obvious signs of having the gene to produce black and yet, after 15 years I have never ever bred a black puppy.

The other point is that following the logic of your agrument we could conclude that EVERYONE is actually gay but that through "a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences..." they all end up practicing hetrosexuality.

The one thing that is fascinating about breeding dogs is I can have their pedigrees that go back, in my lines over 50 years and I still cannot predict the result of a breeding nor can I control the outcome.

Thus to use the example of identical twins, a statistical rarity to prove a point on another statistical rarity does not prove nor disprove a thing.

The Griper said...


and what statistical rarities are you referring to, specifically?

TAO said...

Here you go:

"In the United States, in the year 2000, there were:

118,916 Twin Births

6,742 Triplet Births

506 Quadruplet Births

77 Quintuplets & Other Higher Order Births

That is a 74 percent increase in the number of twin births from 1980.

And since there were just over 4 million births in the United States in 2000, about 3% of babies were born as a twin or higher order multiple (triplets, quads, etc.), which although not common, does mean that multiples are more common than many people believe.

So what is your chance of having more than one baby at a time?

Basically, it is 3% or 1 in 33.

There are things that can increase your chances of having a multiple birth, including a mother being 30 or over when she conceives. For example, while there is a 3% chance of having a multiple birth at age 25-29, it increases to 4% at 30-34 years and almost 5% at 35-39 years.

Other factors that can increase your chances of having twins include having a maternal family history of multiple births (fraternal), and of course, using fertility treatments (in vitro fertilization or fertility drugs).

Your chance of having twins is also influenced by your race (multiples are more common in African Americans and least common in Hispanics and Asians), how many times you have been pregnant (the chance of having twins increases with each pregnancy), and whether or not you have had twins already.

Keep in mind that statistics for birth rates and multiple births include all births, including those that were the result of fertility treatments and those that were spontaneous or 'natural'. So if you don't have any of the factors mentioned above that can increase your chance of having multiples, your chance is going to be a little less than 3%. The chance of having 'natural' fraternal twins is only about 1.7% or 1 in 60. The chances of having twins with the use of fertility treatments can be as high as 20-25%!

Of multiple births, the rate of fraternal twins has been increasing the most, and that makes sense since the chance of having fraternal twins is influenced by an advanced maternal age and the use of fertility treatments.

The chance of having identical twins has remained steady, and is about 0.4% or 1 in 250."

--So, the chance of having identical twins is 4 tenths of one percent...and it remains steady regardless of any other factors.

While the chance of having twins increases with the mothers age and the use of various medical treatments the chances of having identical twins remains constant.

If then we assume a 6 to 8% factor of homosexuality in the United States that would mean that statistically we would end up with a rate of 6% or 8% of 4 tenths of 1 percent of having a homosexual identical twin...

That is a statistical rarity.

The Griper said...

ok Tao,
if you wish to use the science of Statistics then you have just painted yourself into a corner.

each one of those statistics fall within the "margin of error", especially your last statistic, thus have no significance to the issue of marriage in terms of any conclusion. thus the only conclusion that should be drawn is that marriage is an union between a man and woman.

TAO said...

Actually, there are formulas to determine margin of error and again the issue of using a study of indentical twins to PROVE that homosexuality is or is not genetically established does not have any relationship whatsoever to do with the issue of marriage being the union between a man and a woman.

Oh, and let me give you a hint...I am not a supporter of gay marriage...I actually believe that and our legal system should get out of the marriage and divorce process...because that cheapens the meaning of marriage and divorce.

The Griper said...

ok Tao,
since you have eliminated the genetic factor as the means to show the validity of your arguement i'll ask this question;

how does government regulations in regards to marriage cheapen the meaning of it and divorce?

The Griper said...

one more thing, Statistics was a field of my study so i know what the formula is for the significance of an anomoly is and have used that formula many times over the course of my life.

TAO said...

Well, then we have something in common...and you should have known that your data was weak.

I also do not see the linkage between whether homosexuality is genetic or learned behavior and the relationship with marriage.

I always believed that the biggest issue has been that people are married in a church and divorced in a courtroom...that has made the whole argument that marriage is a religious event weak.

The Griper said...

"...and you should have known that your data was weak."

it wasn't my data that was used.
it was your own data as provided, Tao.
that was why i asked for it, to use your own data.

now how is it cheapened as you claim??


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